Eight posts in 2 days, not bad. Since I've caught up on questions, wanted to blog about something I've been meaning to touch on -
Partner personalities fascinate me. In the beginning, I thought it took a certain kind of personality to become a partner. But having worked with so many partners over the years, I've realized that there is a wide diaspora of personalities that make it to the big leagues. Let's break it down -
a) the partier - These are the partners that are all about client service, not so much the audit work. They come in, chat with the clients, set up dinners, hang out with the audit team, talk about the issues at a very high level, and then head out. They are rarely in the office, and you always wonder what they do on a daily basis.
At the same time, you really want to be like them. These partners are great to have when you're hoping to reduce work, set up happy hours, etc. but when it comes to accounting issues, good luck.
b) the i-don't-give-a-shit partner: These are the partners who just don't care about most issues. You bring up an issue, they ask you to come up with a solution, and then either say yes or no. Most issues are just not big issues, and they'll probably end up siding with the client in that it's not material. In order to survive as such, they'll make sure to pad their teams with rock stars so they can relax at home. They probably work 3-4 days a week, and rarely a full day.
c) the unresponsive partner: These are the partners you have to email/call 10-11 times to respond. Only other way to get their attention is to ambush them in their office. They'll then bring up issues at the last minute when you don't have time, so you have to scramble to work overtime in order to address their issues. Problem with these unresponsive partners is that they always have good questions right towards the end.
d) the anal partner: Oh how I hate these types of partners. Once you reach partner, you'd think your level of review/requirements would go down, but for these partners, it actually goes up. This makes life for the senior manager - manager hell. You'll ask for all sorts of memorandums on everything and anything. Every little issue needs to be addressed. H-A-T-E working with them.
e) the reasonable partner - These are partners who know what they're talking about, understand that the Firm's requirements are sometimes unreasonable, and don't add undue burdens on the teams. They're good to work for since they can help explain how things work for you, and at the same time, make sure you contribute your worth to the team.
f) the jerk - This is the partner who is both unreasonable and unresponsive. He or she then blames you for not doing your job, even though you didn't receive the right guidance on what he or she is looking for. Because of the unresponsiveness, you take matters into your own hands, and are then reprimanded at the last minute when the partner actually reviews the work. They will make your life hell and make you want to quit. I know of a few who either quit or did everything in their power to roll off these specific jobs. I've been lucky so far, but don't want to jinx it.
g) the know-it-all: This is the partner who just talks, and talks, and talks. They actually like what they're doing and love explaining things to you, even though you probably don't understand half of it because it's so technical. They are very good at what they do, and you can always go to them with questions, but you will invariably end up doing more work and tackling more issues because of them. Not saying it's a bad thing, but still.
I'm sure I missed various other personality types. Feel free to touch on them in the comments section.
Sunday, 23 December 2012
Is the CPA critical?
Is having a CPA absolutely crucial when thinking about leaving big 4 public accounting for private/industry? How important is it to get that CPA done?
Absolutely critical. I cannot stress how important this is. I know of many companies that will refuse to see your resume if you do not have a CPA. I know a few individuals who couldn't get their CPA done and thus struggled to find a job elsewhere. They did, after months and months of job searches, but it's hard for a recruiter to sell you if you don't have your CPA.
Unfortunately, people associate CPA with competence, and so regardless of your experience, if you are in the accounting world, the lack of the CPA is looked at as a slight.
Personally, I think it's overrated. I still remember this one individual who passed his CPA within a few months of starting at the Firm - he asked me about the debits and credits of some basic accounting issue. And I thought to myself, how can you reward CPAs to such individuals? If you memorize your way through the CPA, then I really don't want you working for me.
Absolutely critical. I cannot stress how important this is. I know of many companies that will refuse to see your resume if you do not have a CPA. I know a few individuals who couldn't get their CPA done and thus struggled to find a job elsewhere. They did, after months and months of job searches, but it's hard for a recruiter to sell you if you don't have your CPA.
Unfortunately, people associate CPA with competence, and so regardless of your experience, if you are in the accounting world, the lack of the CPA is looked at as a slight.
Personally, I think it's overrated. I still remember this one individual who passed his CPA within a few months of starting at the Firm - he asked me about the debits and credits of some basic accounting issue. And I thought to myself, how can you reward CPAs to such individuals? If you memorize your way through the CPA, then I really don't want you working for me.
choosing your sector
I have a question about new hires. If an individual is hired into audit can they select the sector they wish to work in? Or are you assigned a certain sector? I personally would love to audit either manufacturing, or oil and gas.
For some of the Firms, you "choose" a sector, and your clients will primarily be in that space. I say "choose" because it sometimes depends on the Firm's needs. If everyone chooses banking, they will have to move you to a different industry group since every industry has needs.
In Firms like PWC, you are assigned sectors (yea you can "choose" but let's be real, all about demand and supply). In certain other Firms, you can ask to be in certain sectors, but it depends on whether there's a need there to be honest. So if you want to be in oil & gas, reach out to the senior associates on those teams, and ask to be placed on them. Or try your scheduling liasons. Be aggressive as soon as you join, and this will go a long way in helping you get the sector you want. Nothing will come to you at these Firms, don't wait on your butt wishing for the right thing to happen, go grab it with both hands.
For some of the Firms, you "choose" a sector, and your clients will primarily be in that space. I say "choose" because it sometimes depends on the Firm's needs. If everyone chooses banking, they will have to move you to a different industry group since every industry has needs.
In Firms like PWC, you are assigned sectors (yea you can "choose" but let's be real, all about demand and supply). In certain other Firms, you can ask to be in certain sectors, but it depends on whether there's a need there to be honest. So if you want to be in oil & gas, reach out to the senior associates on those teams, and ask to be placed on them. Or try your scheduling liasons. Be aggressive as soon as you join, and this will go a long way in helping you get the sector you want. Nothing will come to you at these Firms, don't wait on your butt wishing for the right thing to happen, go grab it with both hands.
experienced hires
On to the November questions...
I did have a question regarding applying for Big 4 as an experienced CPA. I've heard from a few sources that Big 4 are hurting for seniors, but how long is the turn around for hiring people from the outside to take their places? Better yet, how long in advance should a person apply to a senior position. 1 week? 1 month? 6 months>?
Probably a month. This includes the time it takes for the recruiter to get your resume, determine whether you qualify, choose time slots and check schedules of individuals available to interview you. It's really up to you, whether you want to drag this out or whether you're ready to start immediately.
We definitely are hurting for seniors right now, but this could change during the next economic cycle. It's not the M&A group where they'll lay you off if the economy's going downhill, but the hiring definitely slows down.
I did have a question regarding applying for Big 4 as an experienced CPA. I've heard from a few sources that Big 4 are hurting for seniors, but how long is the turn around for hiring people from the outside to take their places? Better yet, how long in advance should a person apply to a senior position. 1 week? 1 month? 6 months>?
Probably a month. This includes the time it takes for the recruiter to get your resume, determine whether you qualify, choose time slots and check schedules of individuals available to interview you. It's really up to you, whether you want to drag this out or whether you're ready to start immediately.
We definitely are hurting for seniors right now, but this could change during the next economic cycle. It's not the M&A group where they'll lay you off if the economy's going downhill, but the hiring definitely slows down.
should you do a masters in accounting?
I recently landed interview with a large (non-Big4) firm for an audit position and sadly did not receive an offer. I felt that the conversations and interviews were flawless and smooth. I believe one of the main reasons I did not get the offer is due to the fact that the other people interviewing for the job were enrolled in a masters of accounting this year, while I was just taking extra accounting classes at a community college (to reach the accounting units for the CPA as I graduated with a BA in Econ in Spring '12). Would you think I would have a better chance next hiring season if I enroll in a Master of accounting program for the Fall and try again next years hiring season or continue taking community college classes?
The Masters degree honestly doesn't matter, the recruiters do not look at that. It's all about the 150 credits, every one knows the masters is just an additional degree to provide as an excuse for you to get to the 150. At the end of the day, the letters that matter on your resume are C-P-A, not M-S.
The Masters degree honestly doesn't matter, the recruiters do not look at that. It's all about the 150 credits, every one knows the masters is just an additional degree to provide as an excuse for you to get to the 150. At the end of the day, the letters that matter on your resume are C-P-A, not M-S.
big 4 hiring
Would it be out of line if I currently work for a private company to ask one of our Big 4 auditors if they are hiring?
The Firms are absolutely dying for people these days, so go for it. Definitely not out of line, but funnily enough, it's against policy if it's the other way around. I know of an auditor in an other office who got fired for reaching out to the client and asking if they had available positions. This is a breach of independence, and is thus a good reason to fire you. Yes, a lot of auditors go work for clients, but this is usually because the partners put in a good word for you, and the client is usually not the particular engagement you worked on. In fact, this is pretty common. There have been plenty in the past year. I know of many clients that are looking for senior accountants/assistant controllers with 2-4 years of Big 4 experience.
PS - Stay in private, public sucks.
The Firms are absolutely dying for people these days, so go for it. Definitely not out of line, but funnily enough, it's against policy if it's the other way around. I know of an auditor in an other office who got fired for reaching out to the client and asking if they had available positions. This is a breach of independence, and is thus a good reason to fire you. Yes, a lot of auditors go work for clients, but this is usually because the partners put in a good word for you, and the client is usually not the particular engagement you worked on. In fact, this is pretty common. There have been plenty in the past year. I know of many clients that are looking for senior accountants/assistant controllers with 2-4 years of Big 4 experience.
PS - Stay in private, public sucks.
client size
I've got a question about the teams and who they audit. Does the size of the client you have audited make a large difference in future career prospects? And if so is is just a select group that gets to work with relatively large corporations? I mean, is it likely you'll end up with a team working on small accounts and never really advance into the higher levels of a career? Or well basically, how much of an impact does client size have on job prospects outside of the Big 4?
I'd highly recommend that you get on public company engagements. This is absolutely critical in order to open many doors for you post-audit. There are many reasons why - this includes a working knowledge of 404, SEC rules and regulations, and working under deadlines.
The size of the client doesn't matter as much as the industry type, so if you're primarily on software clients there will be plenty of doors open for you in the software world. At the same time, assuming you lack expertise on manufacturing clients, it may not lead to opportunities in the manufacturing world.
If you have high profile clients, like say AT&T, that definitely helps, but it absolutely dominates your audit life, and you barely have time to do any other clients. And you'll be a huge free agent in the telecom space, but probably not in certain other industries. One thing's for sure though, having such high profile clients will definitely move you up the ladder in the audit firms. This is because these clients are served by partners with significant influence, and so once they get to know and trust you, they will do everything they can to move you up the chain, and you will be favored over others. This is a fact.
I'd highly recommend that you get on public company engagements. This is absolutely critical in order to open many doors for you post-audit. There are many reasons why - this includes a working knowledge of 404, SEC rules and regulations, and working under deadlines.
The size of the client doesn't matter as much as the industry type, so if you're primarily on software clients there will be plenty of doors open for you in the software world. At the same time, assuming you lack expertise on manufacturing clients, it may not lead to opportunities in the manufacturing world.
If you have high profile clients, like say AT&T, that definitely helps, but it absolutely dominates your audit life, and you barely have time to do any other clients. And you'll be a huge free agent in the telecom space, but probably not in certain other industries. One thing's for sure though, having such high profile clients will definitely move you up the ladder in the audit firms. This is because these clients are served by partners with significant influence, and so once they get to know and trust you, they will do everything they can to move you up the chain, and you will be favored over others. This is a fact.
Excess documentation
Sorry for the delay, it's been a little crazy. Still on the questions from early October.
The amount of documentation required during audits seems outrageous to me. I must spend half of my time tidying up documents, making them look perfect, and get called out if one little item is not formatted properly. And so much of it seems redundant. Especially for workpapers that really go nowhere. Maybe it is just my organization, but can you touch on audit workpaper documentation? Thanks.
Some people are real sticklers for documentation, but that's the nature of the job I guess. As auditors, we're trained to be anal. So when you take people who are already anal in nature, the job makes them uber-anal.
You know the ones I'm talking about - notes shouldn't be in text boxes, fonts should be the same, columns should be set in a particular manner, absolutely no decimals, not more than two tabs per excel workbook, indexing your paragraphs, no uneven spacing, I could come up with 100 more.
Not going to lie, there are certain things I have pet peeves about myself. At the end of the day, it's "documentation, documentation, documentation". It's not how we audit it, it's what we document at the end of the day that matters. This job is basically a fear-based job. We are doing our best so we can look good in front of the PCAOB. That's why the bells and whistles matter. And the number of checklists and required templates, don't even get me started. Unfortunately that is the world we live in now. The pre-SOX 404 era - those were the glory days. No more. Makes you think, is it even worth being partner now?
The amount of documentation required during audits seems outrageous to me. I must spend half of my time tidying up documents, making them look perfect, and get called out if one little item is not formatted properly. And so much of it seems redundant. Especially for workpapers that really go nowhere. Maybe it is just my organization, but can you touch on audit workpaper documentation? Thanks.
Some people are real sticklers for documentation, but that's the nature of the job I guess. As auditors, we're trained to be anal. So when you take people who are already anal in nature, the job makes them uber-anal.
You know the ones I'm talking about - notes shouldn't be in text boxes, fonts should be the same, columns should be set in a particular manner, absolutely no decimals, not more than two tabs per excel workbook, indexing your paragraphs, no uneven spacing, I could come up with 100 more.
Not going to lie, there are certain things I have pet peeves about myself. At the end of the day, it's "documentation, documentation, documentation". It's not how we audit it, it's what we document at the end of the day that matters. This job is basically a fear-based job. We are doing our best so we can look good in front of the PCAOB. That's why the bells and whistles matter. And the number of checklists and required templates, don't even get me started. Unfortunately that is the world we live in now. The pre-SOX 404 era - those were the glory days. No more. Makes you think, is it even worth being partner now?
Monday, 8 October 2012
Accelerated aging
It's amazing how fast this job accelerates your aging. A majority of the senior managers and partners either have white hair or no hair. People with joyful personalities at 22 turn into numbed zombies after 5 years at the Firm. People who wanted to hang out with co-workers all the time now shudder at the thought of sharing quality time outside of work with their teams. People who used to smile naturally now force smiles or avoid eye contact when bumping into others. How many personalities have changed significantly from when they started? This job can really suck some of the life out of you. But hey, hopefully it's worth it (I hope).
Monday, 24 September 2012
Boomerangs
As a big four employee, lately, I've been hearing a lot about "boomerang" employees. Those who, for some reason or another, decide that leaving work when the sun is still out is not for them and alas, return back to the firm. Yes, the grass is not always greener on the other side, however, is this trending upward or about the same as it always has been? I think, also, that the firms really do a good job in highlighting those that do choose to return to make it appear more common than reality. Can you please speak about how you've seen the trend of "boomerangs" amongst the big 4?
Good question. A boomerang, as the commenter pointed, is one who quits a big 4 Firm and then decides to return (or boomerang) back to the Firm after getting a taste of work life in the non-public accounting world.
I have seen a few return this past summer, but didn't really notice a trend until you mentioned it. It's definitely been higher than past years, but not enough to stand out.
Boomerangs come back due to a combination of factors. The one great thing that you have at an accounting firm that you lack on the other side is flexibility. If it's wednesday at noon in the summer and you feel like taking a nap, or just don't feel like working that day, go home, and make up for it the next day. Nobody will notice as long as you get your work done. On the other side, even if you have nothing to do, odds are you'd still have to stick it out through the end of the day. For managers and above who've spent years getting used to the big 4 lifestyle, this is the biggest adjustment. As a senior associate, it's not that big of a deal since your flexibility is not that high. The other reason people come back is, surprisingly enough, the people. We work with many young motivated people who are willing to do what it takes to get things done. It's just the public accounting culture. But if you leave and work at another company, many of the employees are looking to get out at 5 pm, it's a madhouse to the front door. Takes getting used to, especially since you've been trained in a different world.
People also come back because you constantly keep moving up here and keep getting challenged, but on the private side, you usually have one boss and if he/she isn't going anywhere, you're not going anywhere. And that's a challenge. Heck,making partner before you hit 40, that's an attainable goal.
For those who want that 9-5 life, and believe me, that's something to be envied, you're not coming back if you ever leave.
It's factors like these that make many of us debate whether it's worth it to leave. The Firms used to spew fuzzy stats talking about boomerangs and how it's not a good time to leave until you make manager, etc..but that was only until 2008. I haven't seen any lately, or may have unconsciously deleted those emails if I did get them.
Good question. A boomerang, as the commenter pointed, is one who quits a big 4 Firm and then decides to return (or boomerang) back to the Firm after getting a taste of work life in the non-public accounting world.
I have seen a few return this past summer, but didn't really notice a trend until you mentioned it. It's definitely been higher than past years, but not enough to stand out.
Boomerangs come back due to a combination of factors. The one great thing that you have at an accounting firm that you lack on the other side is flexibility. If it's wednesday at noon in the summer and you feel like taking a nap, or just don't feel like working that day, go home, and make up for it the next day. Nobody will notice as long as you get your work done. On the other side, even if you have nothing to do, odds are you'd still have to stick it out through the end of the day. For managers and above who've spent years getting used to the big 4 lifestyle, this is the biggest adjustment. As a senior associate, it's not that big of a deal since your flexibility is not that high. The other reason people come back is, surprisingly enough, the people. We work with many young motivated people who are willing to do what it takes to get things done. It's just the public accounting culture. But if you leave and work at another company, many of the employees are looking to get out at 5 pm, it's a madhouse to the front door. Takes getting used to, especially since you've been trained in a different world.
People also come back because you constantly keep moving up here and keep getting challenged, but on the private side, you usually have one boss and if he/she isn't going anywhere, you're not going anywhere. And that's a challenge. Heck,making partner before you hit 40, that's an attainable goal.
For those who want that 9-5 life, and believe me, that's something to be envied, you're not coming back if you ever leave.
It's factors like these that make many of us debate whether it's worth it to leave. The Firms used to spew fuzzy stats talking about boomerangs and how it's not a good time to leave until you make manager, etc..but that was only until 2008. I haven't seen any lately, or may have unconsciously deleted those emails if I did get them.
Wednesday, 12 September 2012
Delegation
1) Can you take care of this?
2) FYI
3) See below
4) No text, just a forwarded message
5) Please complete ASAP
6) Can you complete by X
7) We need to do this
8) Let's finish this
Sound familiar? This is basically the only text in an email, along with a forwarded message from someone else. Best part is when this is from a mobile phone during the day, so you know the individual is nowhere near his computer doing work.
Delegation at its finest. I'm sure everyone's received this. Partners to senior managers, senior managers to managers, managers to senior associates, senior associates to staff associates.
As much as it irks me when I get this, especially since I don't know how the reviewer wants this, I can't complain since I'm guilty of doing the same to my teams.
In a world where everyone speaks their minds, it should be something on the lines of this...
"I'm doing everything but work right now, but I still have every intention of getting you to do this task below for me. Yes, I am not giving you any color on how I want it, figure this sh*t out yourself. Man I love having the people below me doing the btch work. Excuse me for now, since I have to go on Kayak.com to figure out the cheapest flight for my vacation."
2) FYI
3) See below
4) No text, just a forwarded message
5) Please complete ASAP
6) Can you complete by X
7) We need to do this
8) Let's finish this
Sound familiar? This is basically the only text in an email, along with a forwarded message from someone else. Best part is when this is from a mobile phone during the day, so you know the individual is nowhere near his computer doing work.
Delegation at its finest. I'm sure everyone's received this. Partners to senior managers, senior managers to managers, managers to senior associates, senior associates to staff associates.
As much as it irks me when I get this, especially since I don't know how the reviewer wants this, I can't complain since I'm guilty of doing the same to my teams.
In a world where everyone speaks their minds, it should be something on the lines of this...
"I'm doing everything but work right now, but I still have every intention of getting you to do this task below for me. Yes, I am not giving you any color on how I want it, figure this sh*t out yourself. Man I love having the people below me doing the btch work. Excuse me for now, since I have to go on Kayak.com to figure out the cheapest flight for my vacation."
Wednesday, 5 September 2012
A new era
Summers at the beach or mountain house, playing with the kids, improving their golf handicap...work a little bit during busy season, schmooze at charity events in the fall, with the occasional appearance at the office. Gotta love the partner life....prior to the 2008 recession.
Now? With SOX and increased regulation and compliance requirements - (thank the PCAOB for this), we're working year-round, and so are the partners. Oh don't get me wrong, there's still the long summer getaways, golfing, schmoozing, sporting events, etc, but at a reduced level.
The stress levels have increased exponentially from back in the day. Sure, the money's better than the past, the benefits (at least in the US) are still unparalleled, but is it worth it?
That's the question on most managers' and senior managers' minds. Even the partners now admit that times are different now. Some believe that this increased regulation is just a phase, some think it's here to stay.
One thing's for sure,we are entering a new auditing era.
Friday, 31 August 2012
outsourcing
Is it possible for auditing work to one day be outsourced like some of the IT sector has? Or do the various exams, credit hours etc prevent that?
We've slowly started outsourcing work already - the testing of documents clerically, the testing of journal entries for completeness and filtering the entries using certain criteria, independence work, rollforwards of prior year schedules,financial statement tie-outs, etc. I'd say about 10-15% of our work is being outsourced, and I can probably see it keep going up.
At the same time, I can never see it fully being outsourced since there is still a matter of face to face conversations with your clients to discuss accounting issues, to build relationships so as to increase the Firms' revenues, to make inquiries of key client personnel. Plus, in order for staff to go through the heirarchy and become partners, they'd probably need to understand all the procedures that an audit entails.
Are we completely immune from globalization? No, but I can't see the entire job being outsourced. Who knows, maybe the Firms will give it a shot and it will become the new normal. As of now, I like that such work is being outsourced, it frees up the staff to do focus on other areas.
We've slowly started outsourcing work already - the testing of documents clerically, the testing of journal entries for completeness and filtering the entries using certain criteria, independence work, rollforwards of prior year schedules,financial statement tie-outs, etc. I'd say about 10-15% of our work is being outsourced, and I can probably see it keep going up.
At the same time, I can never see it fully being outsourced since there is still a matter of face to face conversations with your clients to discuss accounting issues, to build relationships so as to increase the Firms' revenues, to make inquiries of key client personnel. Plus, in order for staff to go through the heirarchy and become partners, they'd probably need to understand all the procedures that an audit entails.
Are we completely immune from globalization? No, but I can't see the entire job being outsourced. Who knows, maybe the Firms will give it a shot and it will become the new normal. As of now, I like that such work is being outsourced, it frees up the staff to do focus on other areas.
bolstering your resume
I am graduating in December and it seems the big hiring season is in September. I don't know if I should apply in Sept. or after I graduate. The thing is, I only have like a 3.2 GPA so I don't know if that would get me an interview at a Big4. So I was going to start studying for the CPA exam and hopefully pass at least a couple tests so that I can put that on my resume when I apply. Would being able to put that you passed two sections so far help land an interview?
A 3.2 GPA is tough, but it depends on the school. If your college has a reputation for strict grades, recruiting lowers its GPA requirement. Otherwise it's usually 3.5 and up. The GPAs below 3.5 are usually references or have something unique that caught the individual's eye. So in your case, you can always apply in september, and if you don't get an interview, try again in december - this time with the CPA sections under your belt.
I also was looking to distinguish myself more since I have a light load this semester, I was thinking of taking a course that teaches you MS Access. Is that something that can be useful and look good on a resume for a Public firm?
Not really. Excel - absolutely, Access - sure it'll help, but not for recruiting. While we're at it - can everyone please take an advanced excel class prior to working? You can really differentiate yourself if you can.
I haven't done a public accounting internship or even an accounting internship, but this Summer I did an internship at Blue Cross Blue Shield in a Learning & Development department. Does that matter at all?
Any kind of corporate work experience will help, it's better than working at your nearby ice cream shop (nothing against ice cream shop employees). For intern applicants, it's not a big deal since you're applying to get your first corporate experience. For entry level hires, it's pretty important, and differentiates yourself from others.
A 3.2 GPA is tough, but it depends on the school. If your college has a reputation for strict grades, recruiting lowers its GPA requirement. Otherwise it's usually 3.5 and up. The GPAs below 3.5 are usually references or have something unique that caught the individual's eye. So in your case, you can always apply in september, and if you don't get an interview, try again in december - this time with the CPA sections under your belt.
I also was looking to distinguish myself more since I have a light load this semester, I was thinking of taking a course that teaches you MS Access. Is that something that can be useful and look good on a resume for a Public firm?
Not really. Excel - absolutely, Access - sure it'll help, but not for recruiting. While we're at it - can everyone please take an advanced excel class prior to working? You can really differentiate yourself if you can.
I haven't done a public accounting internship or even an accounting internship, but this Summer I did an internship at Blue Cross Blue Shield in a Learning & Development department. Does that matter at all?
Any kind of corporate work experience will help, it's better than working at your nearby ice cream shop (nothing against ice cream shop employees). For intern applicants, it's not a big deal since you're applying to get your first corporate experience. For entry level hires, it's pretty important, and differentiates yourself from others.
perception vs reality
A partner recently told me that she thinks a certain individual is on the partner-track, and somebody who she would mention to leadership amongst a few others. I was flabbergasted by this, because I worked with this individual for many years, and would not ever pick him voluntarily again, or hire someone like him if i start a new business. But why did this person have such a good reputation?
Because he was very good at manipulating perception...
There are many individuals who possess this trait. They spend a lot of their time chatting with others instead of working, and taking work from other engagements and calling it their own. They hear other people bring up issues on their engagements, and decide to bring it up to the partners without doing the research themselves.
Look, I have to problem with making sure you look good. To succeed, you sometimes have to do it. I just don't like it when you can't back it up with actual work, but convince others that you do.
Because he was very good at manipulating perception...
There are many individuals who possess this trait. They spend a lot of their time chatting with others instead of working, and taking work from other engagements and calling it their own. They hear other people bring up issues on their engagements, and decide to bring it up to the partners without doing the research themselves.
Look, I have to problem with making sure you look good. To succeed, you sometimes have to do it. I just don't like it when you can't back it up with actual work, but convince others that you do.
Tuesday, 14 August 2012
submitting resumes
I'm an Accounting major going into my senior year. I was wondering if you could touch on resumes, when to submit them, and interviewing. How early is too early for submitting a resume for entry level? I've heard some firms look for them the beginning of your senior year and for others that's too early. Any insight would be great.
Sophomore year - Submit your resumes for the Firms' special programs geared for Sophomores. These programs range from 1 day to 2 weeks depending on the Firm. If you get in here, it gives you an automatic interview for an internship.
Junior year - Submit your resume for a summer/winter internship during your junior year. This is key. You should do this if you have every intention of trying to get into public accounting. Interns are almost guaranteed job offers unless they do something stupid during their internships.
Senior year - If you didn't get an internship, it's not too late. Try again, the Firms still have slots for non-interns.
MBA part two
Going to tackle some questions that related to my previous post -
What are the chances of a CPA finding work in the financial sector without an MBA? And is the learning curve manageable, going from accounting to investments?
It's really hard to do so unless you have contacts in the investment world. You can always become a controller at one of the hedge funds or investment bank and then use your political skills to get into the investments side.
It is very rare to see someone go from public accounting to an investments type job without an MBA.
Don't worry about the learning curve. Heck, the ibanks love hiring from liberal arts colleges - most of these students have taken nothing in finance - just a few economics courses here and there.
If you really want to go into banking, get out - NOW!
Do auditors place well as far as top MBA schools go? Life/Work experience is THE most important factor in MBA admissions. You see banking/consulting people place at top institutions all the time. What about auditors?
I've seen auditors get into top schools, absolutely. You actually separate yourself from the bankers and the consultants since they comprise the majority of applications to these top schools. A big 4 name is nothing to sneer at. While we may not work the insane hours that bankers do, we get enough client experience and technical experience to conjure up a solid application to the top schools.
Are partners and senior managers willing to write a letter of recommendation, knowing that your intention is to leave and go to b-school?
Absolutely, but this is subjective. It really depends on your relationships with the partners and senior managers. While I'm sure they don't you to go, they'll certainly understand.
What are the chances of a CPA finding work in the financial sector without an MBA? And is the learning curve manageable, going from accounting to investments?
It's really hard to do so unless you have contacts in the investment world. You can always become a controller at one of the hedge funds or investment bank and then use your political skills to get into the investments side.
It is very rare to see someone go from public accounting to an investments type job without an MBA.
Don't worry about the learning curve. Heck, the ibanks love hiring from liberal arts colleges - most of these students have taken nothing in finance - just a few economics courses here and there.
If you really want to go into banking, get out - NOW!
Do auditors place well as far as top MBA schools go? Life/Work experience is THE most important factor in MBA admissions. You see banking/consulting people place at top institutions all the time. What about auditors?
I've seen auditors get into top schools, absolutely. You actually separate yourself from the bankers and the consultants since they comprise the majority of applications to these top schools. A big 4 name is nothing to sneer at. While we may not work the insane hours that bankers do, we get enough client experience and technical experience to conjure up a solid application to the top schools.
Are partners and senior managers willing to write a letter of recommendation, knowing that your intention is to leave and go to b-school?
Absolutely, but this is subjective. It really depends on your relationships with the partners and senior managers. While I'm sure they don't you to go, they'll certainly understand.
Sunday, 15 July 2012
MBA
What's your take on an MBA after a couple years of audit experience? How often do your peers or auditors you know move their career forward into business school?
An MBA is a great idea if you don't want to be in the accounting world - if you'd rather be in finance, consulting, banking, etc. etc. People who've left the big 4 to do an MBA do it because they're sick of auditing and because they want to be doing one of the above. It's pretty uncommon in the auditing world for people to go do an MBA, just because it means you're not cut out for the accounting life. Most new auditors at the big 4 are kids who were accounting majors in college and only expect to stay in the accounting world. If you do, there's no point doing an MBA. 5 years at a big 4 firm will get you to a controller position, something that an MBA usually wouldn't.
An MBA is a great idea if you don't want to be in the accounting world - if you'd rather be in finance, consulting, banking, etc. etc. People who've left the big 4 to do an MBA do it because they're sick of auditing and because they want to be doing one of the above. It's pretty uncommon in the auditing world for people to go do an MBA, just because it means you're not cut out for the accounting life. Most new auditors at the big 4 are kids who were accounting majors in college and only expect to stay in the accounting world. If you do, there's no point doing an MBA. 5 years at a big 4 firm will get you to a controller position, something that an MBA usually wouldn't.
interview location
Been almost 4 months since I posted, sorry for the delay, the last thing I want to do when I get home is fire up my computer....
I will be heading into recruiting season in the fall and am hoping to land a job in the Big 4. I attend school in a different part of the country than where I am from because I am currently in the Air Force and attend school in the city where I am stationed. I will be ending my military tour with degree in hand (hopefully a job in hand as well), but, how do I go about landing a job back home, or in any other location for that matter? I do not want to live where I am but it seems that the recruiters will be trying to find candidates to work in the area, and not go out of their way to help someone land a job on the other side of the country. Should I try to interview where I want to work? How would I get in contact with those recruiters as the whole process seems to happen through the University? Is it possible to go through the recruiting/interviewing process in more than one city?
Recruiters are wary of hiring people for their offices if there is more than a 25% chance that they will eventually leave the city. Recruiting is a big investment and so they'd want to invest in those individuals that they think will stay in a specific office long term. The interview applications usually do allow you to pick your top three cities in order of preference, and you can focus on one city while interviewing in another city. They'd usually want you to fly to the city you want to work in to see if you'd be a good fit in that office, since every office culture can be different. So go through your university career site but make it abundantly clear on the application that you wish to work in specific cities that you pick out, and also be willing to explain why.
I will be heading into recruiting season in the fall and am hoping to land a job in the Big 4. I attend school in a different part of the country than where I am from because I am currently in the Air Force and attend school in the city where I am stationed. I will be ending my military tour with degree in hand (hopefully a job in hand as well), but, how do I go about landing a job back home, or in any other location for that matter? I do not want to live where I am but it seems that the recruiters will be trying to find candidates to work in the area, and not go out of their way to help someone land a job on the other side of the country. Should I try to interview where I want to work? How would I get in contact with those recruiters as the whole process seems to happen through the University? Is it possible to go through the recruiting/interviewing process in more than one city?
Recruiters are wary of hiring people for their offices if there is more than a 25% chance that they will eventually leave the city. Recruiting is a big investment and so they'd want to invest in those individuals that they think will stay in a specific office long term. The interview applications usually do allow you to pick your top three cities in order of preference, and you can focus on one city while interviewing in another city. They'd usually want you to fly to the city you want to work in to see if you'd be a good fit in that office, since every office culture can be different. So go through your university career site but make it abundantly clear on the application that you wish to work in specific cities that you pick out, and also be willing to explain why.
Sunday, 1 April 2012
CPA deadline
Onto the February 2012 questions (only answering questions that I can shed some insight on, or have not already answered before...)
What happens if you do not attain a CPA within 2-3 years?
The pressure starts to build. Your final ratings for the year can potentially get knocked down if you don't have your CPA, i.e. when two individuals are rated the same, but one has to be rated higher, the one with the CPA gets the nod. Also, and more importantly, the longer you stay at the Firm, the harder it is to find time to study. It starts to weigh on you, and you will always have it in the back of your mind. For some of the Firms, you can't be promoted to manager if you don't have your CPA. If it's a good economy, you will be a "super" senior since your promotion isn't official even though you've put in the time, if it's a bad economy, like it was in 2009, you could get laid off.
What happens if you do not attain a CPA within 2-3 years?
The pressure starts to build. Your final ratings for the year can potentially get knocked down if you don't have your CPA, i.e. when two individuals are rated the same, but one has to be rated higher, the one with the CPA gets the nod. Also, and more importantly, the longer you stay at the Firm, the harder it is to find time to study. It starts to weigh on you, and you will always have it in the back of your mind. For some of the Firms, you can't be promoted to manager if you don't have your CPA. If it's a good economy, you will be a "super" senior since your promotion isn't official even though you've put in the time, if it's a bad economy, like it was in 2009, you could get laid off.
Saturday, 31 March 2012
client discussions
Sorry for the infrequent posting, when I do end up getting downtime, I try and stay away from computers. Still backed up on questions - on to the December 2011 questions...
When you encounter errors during your testing, how do you address it to the client in a nonconfrontational manner? As gentle as I try to be, as non threatening and polite as I try to phrase any questions, it's still always a difficult topic to breach with clients and some people get defensive(yelling, being generally dismissive, or sometimes shutting down conversation completely!). Since this is anonymous I don't feel the need to be modest...I can't help thinking that part of this problem is I happen to be pretty cute and the menfolk don't like looking incompetent in front of the hot auditor lady. It's hard because sometimes I find myself playing dumb and speaking in a lower tone as to not come off aggressive or condescending in any matter and still be able to get the information I need, but honestly, I die a little inside every time I do this, and I'm a little sick of placating people's egos. Any advice? And how do your hot lady coworkers handle this sort of thing?
How does one tell the client that they messed up? Do not act like you found something huge and do not take pride it in front of them. Understand that we are independent but at the end of the day we are in the client service business. I've dealt with all sorts of client personalities, and it gets really hard. Be very nice to them and say something on the lines of - 'I think this is off', or "I may be wrong, but there might be a mistake here." If they get defensive and say there's nothing wrong, ask if they can explain their thought process behind the issue, and correct them where necessary. Avoid doing this through emails, tones sometimes never come off the way you want it to be conveyed. If they keep getting defensive and you're not getting through (trust me, I've been there), just go up to your superiors and tell them the issue at hand, so they can talk to the client. It's good practice doing it yourself. I've had clients who I've had really good discussions with, so we can walk through the guidance and I can point out where they're wrong, and I've had clients who know they are wrong but just get defensive and say they are not going to change it. It gets really frustrating, but it's part of the client service game, as much as we want to yell at them, we can't. At the same time, be assertive in your answers, and be confident, so they understand you know what you're talking about.It's a fine line.
As far as the second part of the question goes, 70% of me thinks this question is in jest, but let me humor you. Attractive coworkers have what's called the halo effect going for them. The Halo effect, according to Wikipedia (yes, yes, not a true source, but whatever, this isn't a paper), is "a cognitive bias that involves one trait influencing others in one's judgement of another person or object. Although numerous interpersonal dimensions are involved, the halo effect is most commonly observed along the dimension of physical attractiveness. Using this as an example of the halo effect, the benefits of physical attractiveness are implicitly assumed to pervade all aspects of an attractive person's life. In this case, the halo effect states that physically attractive individuals are assumed to possess more socially desirable traits, live happier lives, and become more successful than unattractive people. Similarly, physically unattractive individuals are assumed to be less intelligent, friendly, happy, and successful than their attractive peers." I think this explains itself. At the end of the day, as long as you are assertive and convince them that you know what you're doing, they'll start respecting you more. The more the intelligent conversations you have with them, the more their respect level for you goes up.
When you encounter errors during your testing, how do you address it to the client in a nonconfrontational manner? As gentle as I try to be, as non threatening and polite as I try to phrase any questions, it's still always a difficult topic to breach with clients and some people get defensive(yelling, being generally dismissive, or sometimes shutting down conversation completely!). Since this is anonymous I don't feel the need to be modest...I can't help thinking that part of this problem is I happen to be pretty cute and the menfolk don't like looking incompetent in front of the hot auditor lady. It's hard because sometimes I find myself playing dumb and speaking in a lower tone as to not come off aggressive or condescending in any matter and still be able to get the information I need, but honestly, I die a little inside every time I do this, and I'm a little sick of placating people's egos. Any advice? And how do your hot lady coworkers handle this sort of thing?
How does one tell the client that they messed up? Do not act like you found something huge and do not take pride it in front of them. Understand that we are independent but at the end of the day we are in the client service business. I've dealt with all sorts of client personalities, and it gets really hard. Be very nice to them and say something on the lines of - 'I think this is off', or "I may be wrong, but there might be a mistake here." If they get defensive and say there's nothing wrong, ask if they can explain their thought process behind the issue, and correct them where necessary. Avoid doing this through emails, tones sometimes never come off the way you want it to be conveyed. If they keep getting defensive and you're not getting through (trust me, I've been there), just go up to your superiors and tell them the issue at hand, so they can talk to the client. It's good practice doing it yourself. I've had clients who I've had really good discussions with, so we can walk through the guidance and I can point out where they're wrong, and I've had clients who know they are wrong but just get defensive and say they are not going to change it. It gets really frustrating, but it's part of the client service game, as much as we want to yell at them, we can't. At the same time, be assertive in your answers, and be confident, so they understand you know what you're talking about.It's a fine line.
As far as the second part of the question goes, 70% of me thinks this question is in jest, but let me humor you. Attractive coworkers have what's called the halo effect going for them. The Halo effect, according to Wikipedia (yes, yes, not a true source, but whatever, this isn't a paper), is "a cognitive bias that involves one trait influencing others in one's judgement of another person or object. Although numerous interpersonal dimensions are involved, the halo effect is most commonly observed along the dimension of physical attractiveness. Using this as an example of the halo effect, the benefits of physical attractiveness are implicitly assumed to pervade all aspects of an attractive person's life. In this case, the halo effect states that physically attractive individuals are assumed to possess more socially desirable traits, live happier lives, and become more successful than unattractive people. Similarly, physically unattractive individuals are assumed to be less intelligent, friendly, happy, and successful than their attractive peers." I think this explains itself. At the end of the day, as long as you are assertive and convince them that you know what you're doing, they'll start respecting you more. The more the intelligent conversations you have with them, the more their respect level for you goes up.
Saturday, 25 February 2012
toll
When people say that every year in this practice feels like 7 human years, they really are right. Busy season just takes a heavy toll on you - physically and mentally. The amount of caffeine and unhealthy food that you ingest and digest is just borderline dangerous. Life just stops for 3 months, you start questioning why you're doing this, whether it is really worth it, you start getting sick of people since you see them for 12-14 hours every single day, your room gets dirtier, errands stay unfinished, you get into fights with your significant other because of a lack of time for life...and on and on....
Much respect to the lawyers and the bankers of the world putting in crazier hours than us, don't know how they do it.
Saturday, 28 January 2012
Big 4 partners
What does it take to make the jump from senior manager to partner?
Good question. Let's break it down, in order--
1) People Skills - You have to have really good people skills, you cannot be awkward. You have to come across as genial and amicable, and exhibit the personality of someone that others want to do business with.
2) Perception that you can network and pull in clients - At the end of the day, the Firms were created to make money, and the partners need to keep adding more money in the pool. If the partners think you can go in, network at charity events, golf events, etc, and pull in new clients, you're in, it goes a loooong way. Develop a personality that will make people want to ask you to join them for a drink
3) Perception that you understand audit and that you are good at what you do - You do not have to be an audit superstar, but as long as you have a good reputation, and the client likes you, that's what matters.
4) Reflect your demographic - If you want to be a partner in a place like say Minnesota, odds are being white will help you. If you want to be a partner in Miami, being hispanic will help. Look like your clients and your potential clients out there, and that helps give them a sense of comfort. Hey, I'm not advocating this one bit, but don't blame the messenger, blame the message.
5) Concentrate on 1-2 industries where you can become really knowledgeable in the technical guidance related to that industry, and ideally where there's not a glut of partners already in that industry - Manufacturing and software are notorious for having a ton of partners, so it's tough in cities where there so many partners dedicated to this area
6) Take over certain jobs completely, to such an extent that all the partner needs to do is sign off. This takes a huge burden off his/her shoulder
7) Develop a strong relationship with the CFOs of your current clients, strong enough that they come to you for everything instead of the partner
8) Take a lead role in an IPO
9) Schmooze the partners, they're the ones who can promote you, so try your best to get them to like you
10) Dream..there's a 10% chance of becoming partner, so you better know you're good enough to be partner and be prepared to stick it out as senior manager until you make it (6-10 years as snr mgr).
Remember..it's not the quality of your audit, but your ability to bring in money...
Good question. Let's break it down, in order--
1) People Skills - You have to have really good people skills, you cannot be awkward. You have to come across as genial and amicable, and exhibit the personality of someone that others want to do business with.
2) Perception that you can network and pull in clients - At the end of the day, the Firms were created to make money, and the partners need to keep adding more money in the pool. If the partners think you can go in, network at charity events, golf events, etc, and pull in new clients, you're in, it goes a loooong way. Develop a personality that will make people want to ask you to join them for a drink
3) Perception that you understand audit and that you are good at what you do - You do not have to be an audit superstar, but as long as you have a good reputation, and the client likes you, that's what matters.
4) Reflect your demographic - If you want to be a partner in a place like say Minnesota, odds are being white will help you. If you want to be a partner in Miami, being hispanic will help. Look like your clients and your potential clients out there, and that helps give them a sense of comfort. Hey, I'm not advocating this one bit, but don't blame the messenger, blame the message.
5) Concentrate on 1-2 industries where you can become really knowledgeable in the technical guidance related to that industry, and ideally where there's not a glut of partners already in that industry - Manufacturing and software are notorious for having a ton of partners, so it's tough in cities where there so many partners dedicated to this area
6) Take over certain jobs completely, to such an extent that all the partner needs to do is sign off. This takes a huge burden off his/her shoulder
7) Develop a strong relationship with the CFOs of your current clients, strong enough that they come to you for everything instead of the partner
8) Take a lead role in an IPO
9) Schmooze the partners, they're the ones who can promote you, so try your best to get them to like you
10) Dream..there's a 10% chance of becoming partner, so you better know you're good enough to be partner and be prepared to stick it out as senior manager until you make it (6-10 years as snr mgr).
Remember..it's not the quality of your audit, but your ability to bring in money...
valuation, M&A diligence
I wish to pursue a career in audit or transaction advisory services. Wanted to know if you can give an insight into both departments with regards to the career prospects, work life balance and monetary factors.
Transaction advisory services can be a pretty broad term, depending on the Firm. Assuming you mean m&a commercial due diligence work and valuation related work.
M&A commercial diligence- To get into m&a diligence, you'd need to put in 3-4 years in audit, because they usually like people with audit experiences and CPA certifications. People who usually do a stint in commercial due diligence go onto some rather interesting jobs - joining the acquisitions group of different companies, private equity analysts, other specialized valuation companies (duff & phelps, etc). W/ regards to work life balance, it is really unpredictable. You can be in your office doing nothing for weeks but still have to stay in the office in case a deal is in the works and your Firm has been hired. Then when you are on the deal, it can initially be 8:30-5 days crunching numbers, and then when the deal is in full swing (talking to the target, writing reports, deeper analyses), you can end up working as late as 2-3 am for 2 weeks straight, yes, I said 2-3 AM. And the schedule is really unpredictable. You never know when you have to travel, at times just knowing about it a day before or day of. Monetarily, it's 15-20% higher than audit. Another big problem is the lack of job security. If there's a slow down in m&a deals, the Firms will be looking to cut people in that group. Back in '08-'09, when there was zero m&a activity, the m&a group was absolutely massacred, a visceral bloodbath. If you like unpredictability, traveling, meeting the heads of top targets, and working under pressure, you'll like the rush this group offers you.
Valuation - This is more predictable, there's more job security, the pay is good, work-life is not bad. It's tough to get into though, you'd need finance/economics masters degrees/CFAs from top 40 schools to get in usually. Audit clients usually require valuation of different tangible and intangible assets every year - investments, goodwill, companies, real estate, recent financings (stocks and debt, etc), so the group gets some steady business every year. This is in addition to some new deals that the group gets to work on. Given the expertise you gain/ have looking at financial models, your pay is a solid 15-20% above your respective peers in the audit practice.
Transaction advisory services can be a pretty broad term, depending on the Firm. Assuming you mean m&a commercial due diligence work and valuation related work.
M&A commercial diligence- To get into m&a diligence, you'd need to put in 3-4 years in audit, because they usually like people with audit experiences and CPA certifications. People who usually do a stint in commercial due diligence go onto some rather interesting jobs - joining the acquisitions group of different companies, private equity analysts, other specialized valuation companies (duff & phelps, etc). W/ regards to work life balance, it is really unpredictable. You can be in your office doing nothing for weeks but still have to stay in the office in case a deal is in the works and your Firm has been hired. Then when you are on the deal, it can initially be 8:30-5 days crunching numbers, and then when the deal is in full swing (talking to the target, writing reports, deeper analyses), you can end up working as late as 2-3 am for 2 weeks straight, yes, I said 2-3 AM. And the schedule is really unpredictable. You never know when you have to travel, at times just knowing about it a day before or day of. Monetarily, it's 15-20% higher than audit. Another big problem is the lack of job security. If there's a slow down in m&a deals, the Firms will be looking to cut people in that group. Back in '08-'09, when there was zero m&a activity, the m&a group was absolutely massacred, a visceral bloodbath. If you like unpredictability, traveling, meeting the heads of top targets, and working under pressure, you'll like the rush this group offers you.
Valuation - This is more predictable, there's more job security, the pay is good, work-life is not bad. It's tough to get into though, you'd need finance/economics masters degrees/CFAs from top 40 schools to get in usually. Audit clients usually require valuation of different tangible and intangible assets every year - investments, goodwill, companies, real estate, recent financings (stocks and debt, etc), so the group gets some steady business every year. This is in addition to some new deals that the group gets to work on. Given the expertise you gain/ have looking at financial models, your pay is a solid 15-20% above your respective peers in the audit practice.
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