First post since the beginning of busy season. In fact, first post of 2013 and we're more than halfway through 2013. This new audit world we're entering is tiring. Anyways, on to some of the questions I've received since my last post. Please note that I've skipped questions that I touched on before.
One thing that I found interesting was how he told me about the way work stations and cubicles are set up. Left, top, and right sides are all covered with steep sidings resulting in a very anti-social work environment. I also asked him if he's had a chance to befriend co-workers, and he said no - people don't talk to each other unless they have to and people dread working in teams (i.e. it's just a requirement of the job, not actually very team-oriented). Are Audit jobs this depressing of an environment? At least in some finance and consulting jobs you have bullpens and chance to be collegial with people in your level. I guess not so at all in the accounting world? Are people really that boring and fit the stereotypes?
For starters, the first 5-6 years, you're out at clients most of the time, and you're likely sitting in a small room right next to each other, so it can be very social and at the same time it could make you very anti-social in a matter of months depending on your team. Outside of your team, you definitely have the opportunity to socialize with co-workers, especially during trainings when you get to meet them. You also tend to use them as your therapists (except you really want them to shut up so you can vent), so you lean on them a lot. It is definitely a team-oriented job in that everyone needs to do their job for the audit to be efficient and of decent quality. As far as people being boring go, given that most people are between 22-28 and like to have fun and go out a lot, I definitely wouldn't categorize it as boring - especially when compared to regular companies where the medium age is 35 and everyone has pictures of their kids on their desk and go to lunch to the same place every day. Not sure where your friend works - but either that particular office has a bad culture, or your friend doesn't like to socialize.
Wednesday, 10 July 2013
Sunday, 23 December 2012
Different types of partners
Eight posts in 2 days, not bad. Since I've caught up on questions, wanted to blog about something I've been meaning to touch on -
Partner personalities fascinate me. In the beginning, I thought it took a certain kind of personality to become a partner. But having worked with so many partners over the years, I've realized that there is a wide diaspora of personalities that make it to the big leagues. Let's break it down -
a) the partier - These are the partners that are all about client service, not so much the audit work. They come in, chat with the clients, set up dinners, hang out with the audit team, talk about the issues at a very high level, and then head out. They are rarely in the office, and you always wonder what they do on a daily basis.
At the same time, you really want to be like them. These partners are great to have when you're hoping to reduce work, set up happy hours, etc. but when it comes to accounting issues, good luck.
b) the i-don't-give-a-shit partner: These are the partners who just don't care about most issues. You bring up an issue, they ask you to come up with a solution, and then either say yes or no. Most issues are just not big issues, and they'll probably end up siding with the client in that it's not material. In order to survive as such, they'll make sure to pad their teams with rock stars so they can relax at home. They probably work 3-4 days a week, and rarely a full day.
c) the unresponsive partner: These are the partners you have to email/call 10-11 times to respond. Only other way to get their attention is to ambush them in their office. They'll then bring up issues at the last minute when you don't have time, so you have to scramble to work overtime in order to address their issues. Problem with these unresponsive partners is that they always have good questions right towards the end.
d) the anal partner: Oh how I hate these types of partners. Once you reach partner, you'd think your level of review/requirements would go down, but for these partners, it actually goes up. This makes life for the senior manager - manager hell. You'll ask for all sorts of memorandums on everything and anything. Every little issue needs to be addressed. H-A-T-E working with them.
e) the reasonable partner - These are partners who know what they're talking about, understand that the Firm's requirements are sometimes unreasonable, and don't add undue burdens on the teams. They're good to work for since they can help explain how things work for you, and at the same time, make sure you contribute your worth to the team.
f) the jerk - This is the partner who is both unreasonable and unresponsive. He or she then blames you for not doing your job, even though you didn't receive the right guidance on what he or she is looking for. Because of the unresponsiveness, you take matters into your own hands, and are then reprimanded at the last minute when the partner actually reviews the work. They will make your life hell and make you want to quit. I know of a few who either quit or did everything in their power to roll off these specific jobs. I've been lucky so far, but don't want to jinx it.
g) the know-it-all: This is the partner who just talks, and talks, and talks. They actually like what they're doing and love explaining things to you, even though you probably don't understand half of it because it's so technical. They are very good at what they do, and you can always go to them with questions, but you will invariably end up doing more work and tackling more issues because of them. Not saying it's a bad thing, but still.
I'm sure I missed various other personality types. Feel free to touch on them in the comments section.
Partner personalities fascinate me. In the beginning, I thought it took a certain kind of personality to become a partner. But having worked with so many partners over the years, I've realized that there is a wide diaspora of personalities that make it to the big leagues. Let's break it down -
a) the partier - These are the partners that are all about client service, not so much the audit work. They come in, chat with the clients, set up dinners, hang out with the audit team, talk about the issues at a very high level, and then head out. They are rarely in the office, and you always wonder what they do on a daily basis.
At the same time, you really want to be like them. These partners are great to have when you're hoping to reduce work, set up happy hours, etc. but when it comes to accounting issues, good luck.
b) the i-don't-give-a-shit partner: These are the partners who just don't care about most issues. You bring up an issue, they ask you to come up with a solution, and then either say yes or no. Most issues are just not big issues, and they'll probably end up siding with the client in that it's not material. In order to survive as such, they'll make sure to pad their teams with rock stars so they can relax at home. They probably work 3-4 days a week, and rarely a full day.
c) the unresponsive partner: These are the partners you have to email/call 10-11 times to respond. Only other way to get their attention is to ambush them in their office. They'll then bring up issues at the last minute when you don't have time, so you have to scramble to work overtime in order to address their issues. Problem with these unresponsive partners is that they always have good questions right towards the end.
d) the anal partner: Oh how I hate these types of partners. Once you reach partner, you'd think your level of review/requirements would go down, but for these partners, it actually goes up. This makes life for the senior manager - manager hell. You'll ask for all sorts of memorandums on everything and anything. Every little issue needs to be addressed. H-A-T-E working with them.
e) the reasonable partner - These are partners who know what they're talking about, understand that the Firm's requirements are sometimes unreasonable, and don't add undue burdens on the teams. They're good to work for since they can help explain how things work for you, and at the same time, make sure you contribute your worth to the team.
f) the jerk - This is the partner who is both unreasonable and unresponsive. He or she then blames you for not doing your job, even though you didn't receive the right guidance on what he or she is looking for. Because of the unresponsiveness, you take matters into your own hands, and are then reprimanded at the last minute when the partner actually reviews the work. They will make your life hell and make you want to quit. I know of a few who either quit or did everything in their power to roll off these specific jobs. I've been lucky so far, but don't want to jinx it.
g) the know-it-all: This is the partner who just talks, and talks, and talks. They actually like what they're doing and love explaining things to you, even though you probably don't understand half of it because it's so technical. They are very good at what they do, and you can always go to them with questions, but you will invariably end up doing more work and tackling more issues because of them. Not saying it's a bad thing, but still.
I'm sure I missed various other personality types. Feel free to touch on them in the comments section.
Is the CPA critical?
Is having a CPA absolutely crucial when thinking about leaving big 4 public accounting for private/industry? How important is it to get that CPA done?
Absolutely critical. I cannot stress how important this is. I know of many companies that will refuse to see your resume if you do not have a CPA. I know a few individuals who couldn't get their CPA done and thus struggled to find a job elsewhere. They did, after months and months of job searches, but it's hard for a recruiter to sell you if you don't have your CPA.
Unfortunately, people associate CPA with competence, and so regardless of your experience, if you are in the accounting world, the lack of the CPA is looked at as a slight.
Personally, I think it's overrated. I still remember this one individual who passed his CPA within a few months of starting at the Firm - he asked me about the debits and credits of some basic accounting issue. And I thought to myself, how can you reward CPAs to such individuals? If you memorize your way through the CPA, then I really don't want you working for me.
Absolutely critical. I cannot stress how important this is. I know of many companies that will refuse to see your resume if you do not have a CPA. I know a few individuals who couldn't get their CPA done and thus struggled to find a job elsewhere. They did, after months and months of job searches, but it's hard for a recruiter to sell you if you don't have your CPA.
Unfortunately, people associate CPA with competence, and so regardless of your experience, if you are in the accounting world, the lack of the CPA is looked at as a slight.
Personally, I think it's overrated. I still remember this one individual who passed his CPA within a few months of starting at the Firm - he asked me about the debits and credits of some basic accounting issue. And I thought to myself, how can you reward CPAs to such individuals? If you memorize your way through the CPA, then I really don't want you working for me.
choosing your sector
I have a question about new hires. If an individual is hired into audit can they select the sector they wish to work in? Or are you assigned a certain sector? I personally would love to audit either manufacturing, or oil and gas.
For some of the Firms, you "choose" a sector, and your clients will primarily be in that space. I say "choose" because it sometimes depends on the Firm's needs. If everyone chooses banking, they will have to move you to a different industry group since every industry has needs.
In Firms like PWC, you are assigned sectors (yea you can "choose" but let's be real, all about demand and supply). In certain other Firms, you can ask to be in certain sectors, but it depends on whether there's a need there to be honest. So if you want to be in oil & gas, reach out to the senior associates on those teams, and ask to be placed on them. Or try your scheduling liasons. Be aggressive as soon as you join, and this will go a long way in helping you get the sector you want. Nothing will come to you at these Firms, don't wait on your butt wishing for the right thing to happen, go grab it with both hands.
For some of the Firms, you "choose" a sector, and your clients will primarily be in that space. I say "choose" because it sometimes depends on the Firm's needs. If everyone chooses banking, they will have to move you to a different industry group since every industry has needs.
In Firms like PWC, you are assigned sectors (yea you can "choose" but let's be real, all about demand and supply). In certain other Firms, you can ask to be in certain sectors, but it depends on whether there's a need there to be honest. So if you want to be in oil & gas, reach out to the senior associates on those teams, and ask to be placed on them. Or try your scheduling liasons. Be aggressive as soon as you join, and this will go a long way in helping you get the sector you want. Nothing will come to you at these Firms, don't wait on your butt wishing for the right thing to happen, go grab it with both hands.
experienced hires
On to the November questions...
I did have a question regarding applying for Big 4 as an experienced CPA. I've heard from a few sources that Big 4 are hurting for seniors, but how long is the turn around for hiring people from the outside to take their places? Better yet, how long in advance should a person apply to a senior position. 1 week? 1 month? 6 months>?
Probably a month. This includes the time it takes for the recruiter to get your resume, determine whether you qualify, choose time slots and check schedules of individuals available to interview you. It's really up to you, whether you want to drag this out or whether you're ready to start immediately.
We definitely are hurting for seniors right now, but this could change during the next economic cycle. It's not the M&A group where they'll lay you off if the economy's going downhill, but the hiring definitely slows down.
I did have a question regarding applying for Big 4 as an experienced CPA. I've heard from a few sources that Big 4 are hurting for seniors, but how long is the turn around for hiring people from the outside to take their places? Better yet, how long in advance should a person apply to a senior position. 1 week? 1 month? 6 months>?
Probably a month. This includes the time it takes for the recruiter to get your resume, determine whether you qualify, choose time slots and check schedules of individuals available to interview you. It's really up to you, whether you want to drag this out or whether you're ready to start immediately.
We definitely are hurting for seniors right now, but this could change during the next economic cycle. It's not the M&A group where they'll lay you off if the economy's going downhill, but the hiring definitely slows down.
should you do a masters in accounting?
I recently landed interview with a large (non-Big4) firm for an audit position and sadly did not receive an offer. I felt that the conversations and interviews were flawless and smooth. I believe one of the main reasons I did not get the offer is due to the fact that the other people interviewing for the job were enrolled in a masters of accounting this year, while I was just taking extra accounting classes at a community college (to reach the accounting units for the CPA as I graduated with a BA in Econ in Spring '12). Would you think I would have a better chance next hiring season if I enroll in a Master of accounting program for the Fall and try again next years hiring season or continue taking community college classes?
The Masters degree honestly doesn't matter, the recruiters do not look at that. It's all about the 150 credits, every one knows the masters is just an additional degree to provide as an excuse for you to get to the 150. At the end of the day, the letters that matter on your resume are C-P-A, not M-S.
The Masters degree honestly doesn't matter, the recruiters do not look at that. It's all about the 150 credits, every one knows the masters is just an additional degree to provide as an excuse for you to get to the 150. At the end of the day, the letters that matter on your resume are C-P-A, not M-S.
big 4 hiring
Would it be out of line if I currently work for a private company to ask one of our Big 4 auditors if they are hiring?
The Firms are absolutely dying for people these days, so go for it. Definitely not out of line, but funnily enough, it's against policy if it's the other way around. I know of an auditor in an other office who got fired for reaching out to the client and asking if they had available positions. This is a breach of independence, and is thus a good reason to fire you. Yes, a lot of auditors go work for clients, but this is usually because the partners put in a good word for you, and the client is usually not the particular engagement you worked on. In fact, this is pretty common. There have been plenty in the past year. I know of many clients that are looking for senior accountants/assistant controllers with 2-4 years of Big 4 experience.
PS - Stay in private, public sucks.
The Firms are absolutely dying for people these days, so go for it. Definitely not out of line, but funnily enough, it's against policy if it's the other way around. I know of an auditor in an other office who got fired for reaching out to the client and asking if they had available positions. This is a breach of independence, and is thus a good reason to fire you. Yes, a lot of auditors go work for clients, but this is usually because the partners put in a good word for you, and the client is usually not the particular engagement you worked on. In fact, this is pretty common. There have been plenty in the past year. I know of many clients that are looking for senior accountants/assistant controllers with 2-4 years of Big 4 experience.
PS - Stay in private, public sucks.
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